Outfiting An Old Computer

[Yozuki]

I've recently acquired a Dell Latitude XPi P90T. It is a rather old computer, made in 1995. It has a 90Mhz Pentium 24MB Ram (40 is the max if I upgrade it), and it has 1MB of Video Ram (not like that is really important).

I'm under the impression the smaller space confinements you have, the better you use what resources you have. I think it's the Japanese mentality of small things. Anyway, I've currently got the following programs ready:

Netscape Communicator 4.8
Windows Media Player 6.4
Quicktime 3.0.2
Real Player 5.0

What I still need:
Internet Explorer
DirectX
Macromedia Shockwave and Flash
AOL Instant Messenger
Yahoo Messenger
MSN Messenger
Mozilla

Basically like any computer user with an old machine, I want the highest version I can go, without sacrificing much compatability and speed (though a little is acceptable for better performance).

I don't think Mozilla (any version) will run on this computer (not sure though), so I'm using Netscape. The messengers I've heard require you to upgrade to the latest version or they won't work. Any help would be appreciated!

[locustfurnace]

Which OS are you using? 95 or 98? 95 would be better, requires less RAM, disk space.
You can find many older versions of many web browsers at http://browsers.evolt.org/

Optimize your vcache, and paging size for increased performance.
http://www.oldversion.com/talk/index.php?a...&t=1610&hl=swap (http://www.oldversion.com/talk/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=1610&hl=swap)

Try a number of the alternative chat clients I've listed for an all-in-one, which should handle all your messenger requirements in 1 app.
http://www.oldversion.com/talk/index.php?a...t=ST&f=2&t=1395 (http://www.oldversion.com/talk/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=1395)

[Jaime Andrés]

I have just read an article in a PC magazine which gives a whole new perspective on old computers languishing in the cupboard with the following three interesting uses.

Firewall on a 486
What you need
. 486 75MHz PC
. Smoothwall express (free download)
. Network cards

Media streaming client and server
What you need
. Pentium 90MHz PC
. 48MB RAM
. 6GB hard disk or bigger
. Network card

Intrusion-detection system
What you need
.500MHz Pentium3 or faster
. Network card
. Eagle X

If anyone is genuinely interested in any of the above I can scan the article and send it on.

[locustfurnace]

I've built many old systems from 386 and 486 systems, from simple firewalls, to routers to dedicated jukebox machines.
Even older computers work fine with older operating systems, the oldest I have recently built was from a 286 8Mhz 640kbs RAM laptop with 'New Deal OS', which could surf the net or email.
Old computers today, were the best in their time, and did their jobs well, the only reason people think they need bigger and fast machines is due to marketing, people generally have more power than needed. Most really do not need a 3Ghz machine to write a email, surf the net or type out a resume.
There are many floppy disk based Firewall systems, which turn an old machine into a dedicated firewall with no hard drive, just a floppy image & 2/3 nics.
I am currently running a packet filtering box with Apache SSL web server, SSH server, email server, DNS caching proxy & weather service on a thincleint - 233Mhz, 64megs RAM. Originally had QNX 2.0 on a Disk-on-Chip OS, which was bypassed and i wired in a IDE connector and power supply to supposrt a 1gig hard drive.
Then the other machine is running at 200Mhz with Squid caching Proxy and Dans Guardian for content filtering. 1 gig hard drive as well.
With 5 boxes connecting to the packet filtering machines, the average CPU load is 0.05%. This is on a 233 GEO Cyrix CPU machine, and the Cyrix is really a poor quality chip with its tiny 16kb cache. (compared to the 512kb cache on Athon XP 'Barton" core I run on main system.)

[Jaime Andrés]

You didn't write that PC Pro article did you LF. LOL

I have an 'obsolete' Pentium 100MHz PC, and I'm going to have a go at the firewall option the article mentions that software firewalls on the same disk cannot be relied on.
Working it out it will be much cheaper and more effective to get this old PC back to life than just one years subscription to Norton for their Firewall.

[locustfurnace]

Yes, a firewall on the core system is not as effective as one outside of the system, which one based on a CD-R is very powerful, as the CD-R can not be altered. The only way to make changes is to replace the CD with a newly recorded image. This makes it alot more difficult for someone to break into your system by placing a rootkit on the firewall. Since the medium is Read-Only.
I have used floppy drives and floppy based firewall systems, as I seen the need for a CD based firewall a bit overkill, since they usually require alot of power as they offer more features than a basic firewall. The less you offer on the firewall box, the less chances of compromises.
The Floppy based firewall I used was extremely fit for the job at hand, not overpowered or underpowerd. The box was a old Compaq 486, which features a bios write protect for the floppy, plus the floppy has the write protect tab feature. It does not matter that a floppy is slower to load, since your only loading it once, and only when changes are made. Once the complete system is then loaded into RAM, it is very fast.
No Harddrives means; less noise, less heat, less power required to run the system. The thinclient box I make mention of comes with absolutely No Fans, so it is very quite. Compared to my main box which has 7 fans. 4 hard drives, 1 floppy, 1 SuperDisk, a CD recorder and more.
With a firewall box, you can also remove the need for a router, as most firewalls will also do routing and NAT (Network Address Translation) which permits 1 assigned IP address for all other boxes connected.
Then if you like you could stick the firewall box in a corner, since you wont need a monitor,keyboard or mouse, as most operate headless, and you can telnet (bad idea mostly) or SSH into the box for any adjustments.
If anything happens, such as a compromise, you can easily replace the floppy disk with a brand new one. Booting a Floppy works on all older machines, as bootable CD's do not always.

I currently built my packet filter on the thinclient box, takes alot of work building rules and managing the packet filtering, but is alot better also then relying on someone else's idea of what you need for a firewall.

[Jaime Andrés]

Your system seems a lot more simpler than the one in mentioned in this article. It's too late for me now 02.00 CET, but tomorrow I'll post up the text of this firewall article just to get your opinion before I go any furthur.

[locustfurnace]

I have tested 'Smoothwall' in the past as an application on a GNU/Linux box.
Not sure why they recommened a 500MHZ box for an IDS either! Thats alot of power for that. An IDS should and does work fine on much lower powered systems also. If you were connected to several hundred machines, then it would be a good idea to use more powerful CPU's, but for a home user, I think thats a bit overkill. Tripwire which alot of people use and is a very good IDS just makes requirements of a pentium-class CPU.
A poor-man's Tripwire is just using MD5 checksums. Make a MD5 of all files, redirect output to a text file and email yourself the result, or copy to a floppy, and store offline, takes a few minutes to check and verify, if you use an NFS mount, you could just make a seperate NFS which you much explicitly mount - to make it not available normally. then just point your MD5 app to the file to verify the checksum of all files. This can be done on a schedule as well. Or store your MD5 output on a CD-R as it again, can not be changed. Or you may be able to use snort (http://www.snort.org/). I perfer the MD5 route myself, and run a rootkit checker if applicable on your OS.
If your wanting a firewall, build just a firewall, if you also want an e-mail server, web server, place them on seperate box. Inside the firewall protected LAN, you can always port forward if you want outside access to the web server.

[Jaime Andrés]

I have scanned a .pdf copy of the firewall project on this link http://home.no/cptsmiley/firewallproject.pdf. I would be grateful for any comments to it's practibility.

[locustfurnace]

How old is this article by the way?
What exactly do YOU want to accomplish. There are so many options, if you say what you want to acheive, it might be easier to see if something fits you needs.
Do you want all machines connected to use DHCP assigned IP's, or do you want to use static ones, I prefer static myself, it makes is easier to ping machines, to use Network Neighbourhood and Samba and to access the web servers on each machine (for internal use only). It also makes it easier to diagnose problems with the lan if they arise.
The article makes mention of requirement of a hard drive, but does not make mention of it being used in the full article. Plus it also makes mention of running a SMTP (e-mail server), do you plan to run an e-mail server? Not a good idea if you never done it before and do not understand the service, which is usually "sendmail" a rather difficult service to correctly configure for many.
it also appears it is running a web server, again, if not sure how to set one up correctly, can be a problem down the road. The server is possibly the Apache Web Server, alittle overkill for most home users also. and again, if never set up Apache, can be a chore to do it correctly.
If the article makes mention of an older release of smoothwall. you should not look for the old version, but test the latest, with the security patches in place.
A draw back to running these services on a CD, is that if they discover a hole in the service, you can not patch it, as you could normally under a hard drive installation, Yoy only left up to burning a new CD, not a problem, but if your not going to use these, Apache, Sendmail, why have them, they are potentail security risks if your not keeping tabs on the security bulletins and updating as necessary.
This is why if you do not plan to use them, don't run them, and don't have them on the firewall box. Just make a single Firewall box, sans the servers.

In the past I have used both of these floppy-based Firewalls, all they are are firewalls. and they require very little of everything to work, and work well.
[/list]
ClosedBSD (http://www.closedbsd.org/) (FREEWARE)
* BSD based firewall and network address translation utility which boots off of a single floppy disk, and requires no hard drive.
Frazierwall (http://www.frazierwall.com/) (FREEWARE)
Floppy-Disk based firewall. Makes use of GNU/Linux
floppyfw (http://www.zelow.no/floppyfw/) (FREEWARE) is a router with the advanced firewall-capabilities in Linux that fits on one single floppy disc.
Coyote Linux floppy firewall (http://www.coyotelinux.com/products.php?Product=coyote) (FREEWARE)
This product is a single floppy distribution of Linux that is designed for the sole purpose of sharing an Internet connection. The floppy can be created using either a Microsoft Windows wizard, or by using a set of Linux shell scripts.
[/list]
CD-Based firewalls,
NetBoz (http://www.netboz.net/) (FREEWARE)
NetBoz works over standard FreeBSD services, giving maximum flexibility, ease of use and performance to corporate networks.
Netboz boots from a CD, making a firewall of any Pentium© class PC, Works with 2 or 3 network interfaces

Related Tools
PicoBSD (http://people.freebsd.org/~picobsd/picobsd.html) (FREEWARE)
PicoBSD is a one floppy version of FreeBSD 3.0-current, which in its different variations allows you to have secure dialup access, small diskless router or even a dial-in server. And all this on only one standard 1.44MB floppy. It runs on a minimum 386SX CPU with 8MB of RAM (no HDD required!).
theWall (http://thewall.sourceforge.net/) (FREEWARE)
TheWall is a collection of PicoBSD configuration trees and prebuild binaries for various platforms that provides NAT and firewall services for a small network. Requirements; Generic 486 (or better) PC clone with 16mb (or more) RAM, floppy drive and two supported NICs (a hard disk is NOT required).
emBSD powered firewalls (http://embsd.sourceforge.net/) (FREEWARE)
emBSD is a stripped down version of OpenBSD. The concept for emBSD is a small foot print operating system for x86 (or other) hardware to use as little hard disk space as possible yet provide a fully functional Routing Firewall. The main driving force behind this concept is to not use a hard disk drive at all, but use off the shelf Compact Flash cards.

[Jaime Andrés]

Originally posted by locustfurnace@Apr 14 2004, 11:12 PM
How old is this article by the way?

May issue 2004.

Very many thanks for such a comprehensive reply. I do take your point about the suggested system as overkill for such an ordinary user such as myself with basic home use system requirments. My real interest in a project like this is because shortly I am setting up a new business which will involve a commercial web-site and online sales.
As a first timer in this type of venture I was obviously concerned about security. I would assume that the host/server I sign up with would provide a secure package.
It would seem sensible to start off in a simple way as you suggest just using a floppy disk based firewall. I will certainly research the links you have given and will probably return to this thread if I get bogged down.
Many thanks for your interest.

[locustfurnace]

Originally posted by Jaime Andrés@Apr 14 2004, 06:15 PM
I am setting up a new business which will involve a commercial web-site and online sales.
As a first timer in this type of venture I was obviously concerned about security. I would assume that the host/server I sign up with would provide a secure package.
First time business, go with a provider til you have the skills and understanding of the backend business, which usually requires skills with Web servers(Apache), a database for transactions, accounts, inventory(Postgresql), Secure Socket Layers(SSL), an excellent firewall, a credit card validator, cgi and good HTML, XML skills, redundant backup system for when systems crashes, UPS system and enough bandwidth to handle the load, PLUS a domain name, static IP. and much more.
Its well worth it to just have someone else provide you with the space, bandwidth needed & necessary the tools.
Make sure the host provides enough room to grow, enough tools to use, such as Postgresql, php, perl, enough e-mail space and whatever else you decide you want, they should have up-to-date servers, and keep their systems patched, not all do. Do not expect just because they are in business, they are computer literate either. Many people drop a dime on a turn-key business and have no idea what they are doing, to them it is just making money for them.
If you plan to make a business, dont just look for the cheapest host, remember you get what you pay for at times, and alot of these places just give you a web account to host static pages, not ideal for a transaction based business.
Ask what their uptime is on the servers, what they use for backup, do they backup your accounts daily? What kind of guarantee are you getting if they crash and burn and lose all your data, which is a good ida to also backup your work daily.
For the best performance, what you will want is a host thats running on server hardware, not someone who's using cheap Celeron boxes - if your business if going to be heavily trafficed. Look for someone using alapha boxes or sun boxes. Also, Windows is not the best Server OS.
Apache is the #1 web server in the market, but don't fall for the Apache on Windows combo either. Not a great idea. The best Server OS's are UNIX and *BSD with many now going to the GNU/LINUX, Windows is not the most widely used. Even Microsoft has depended on BSD to run their Hotmail, and GNU/Linux to protect their servers from attacks (recently too).
If you plan to do this at home, learn learn and learn some more, But while your learning, you should let someone with the experience host your site. Its extremely cheap for what you get also, and without the worrys of "did I connect, setup this correctly?"

[Guest]

Thanks again for your very good advice. I understand about not going for a cheap option. Could I prevail on your experience just once more and ask your opinion of the following server as regard to the features that you mentioned in the above post, sorry it is in Spanish but the features are quite recognizable. I will be using the Plan Profesional. http://www.servidoresonline.com/tarifas.shtml

[Jaime Andrés]

Auto login failure sorry. This link has details of the plan http://www.servidoresonline.com/profesional.shtml

[locustfurnace]

They seem to cover it all. They have cgi, ssi, php, perl, Postgresql, ODBC, SSL, Frontpage extensions; if you wish you create pages, sites via Frontpage, which really is one good feature I have used in the past and found it to work well.
They do make use of the P4 CPU, which works well for most services, and a good start. Which I am sure also helps keep costs down compared to the costs of 64bit SUN or Alpha systems. Which aren't necessary, but a real plus if a host uses that equipment.
You will need to purchase a SSL certifcate if you plan to use SSL, and you should use SSL for transactions, that's a must for protecting customers data.
Looks like a good house to host your business on.

[Jaime Andrés]

Thanks for that reassurance, and apologies for veering off of the original topic.

[ebmocwen]

I have just discovered oldversion.com and am very new to forums like this, but this is an excellent thread! I am not extremely computer literate but I get by. I have an old system Windows 95, Pentium II 350mhz, 256mb ram. I recently had to reformat and reinstall Windows so I'm very interested in the original post about what versions of software will work with my system. I think the original post mentioned Mozilla? I am using Mozilla 1.6 and it works great. I can also run Explorer 5.5 with no problem. Still trying to read through all these forums so I know there is probably all kinds of posts about other software. All the talk about firewalls kinda went over my head but what about the original question about software versions?
If I should've posted in another forum or something I apologize.

[locustfurnace]

Originally posted by ebmocwen@Apr 25 2004, 10:43 AM
I have an old system Windows 95, Pentium II 350mhz, 256mb ram.
Thats not really considered an 'old' system by me, its just older. That should give you ample power to run just about any programs you wish. Just read the above post on how to optimize your computer for better performance.
About what versions to run, thats always debateable. What might work fine on one persons setup, may not be the best for anothers.
There is more to the computers performance factor than just the few items mentioned which can make systems different, such as the type of RAM, speed of RAM, the chipsets, the video RAM; integrated or on a card - PCI or AGP? The type of hard drive, the rpm's of the harddrive, the cache and seek time of the hard drive, are they set in PIO Mode's? Or UDMA? UDMA33? UDMA66? Did you make sure the hardrives are using DMA in Windows?
How many apps do you run at a time? 2?, 4?, 15? there are alot of factors that come into play. Your setup should have not much trouble running most programs.
I've run IE 5.5 on a Pentium 200Mhz non-MMX without problems, I've run alot of apps on that old box with little trouble.
There are many options you can find on the forum, from the listing of alternative browsers in one thread. In Place of IE, you might want to try Slimbrowser, it offers many more features then IE does, and its basically using the IE core dll's. Think of it more as a facelift to IE.
Other web browsers might use different rendering engines, such as Netscapes gecko, which can be found in some other browsers too.
IE & Netscape are very heafty web browsers with alot of integrated apps, such as html composers and e-mail clients. These might be alittle over kill these days. Since you can find better editors and e-mail clients around, such as Thunderbird, Eudora, popcorn.
The first thing you need to do is make a backup of your system. Always backup. This way you don't have to learn later that you do not like a certain version of a program, and now you can not downgrade to a previous release. As some apps will not properly uninstall.

[ebmocwen]

locustfurnace,

I've been reading through all the forums, trying to get up to speed. Are you like a computer or something? How do you know so much stuff? :blink:

I appreciate your last post about each system being different, but don't newer versions of programs stop supporting the older OS's and therefore won't work? Like I thought IE 5.5 was the last version to support Windows 95? Or am I wrong in thinking that?

What you say about backing up makes sense. I can't get my burner to work right now, but I do have two harddrives. I saw in one post as I was reading through where you listed a bunch of back up programs. Would I need to use one of these, or could I just copy my harddrive with Windows on it to my larger harddrive for back up?

Additionally, I am having problems reinstalling kazaa (and trying to install kazaalite as is recommended over and over again in these forums) but there seems to be a kajillion posts and threads about this program. Where should I post my question?

Thanks for your reply and forgive a newbie if I ask dumb questions. :o)

[locustfurnace]

Win95 has MS backup, if it is not installed you can install it from the Win95 CD.
Go the the control panel and click the Add/Remove prgorams, and the windows programs tab, and click through the available options til you land on MSbackup. Install it and you can use it to make backups.
You can store the backups on a seperate partition on the harddrive, or on a seperate hard drive.
MS backup works fine. it will still require you to install the base OS, then you can recover you system back to the way it was with the backup program. If it ever crashes.
It is very easy to use.
No, you really dont need any other programs than that, as it works fine for backing up the system.

There are better apps out there to use for making system images, which when you restore an image, it restores the base OS and all apps. but its harder to use in some cases. It is a preferrable route though, since you can save alot of time recovering your system.
I can not recommened any Windows based imaging apps since i have never used them enough, i just use the Disk imaging software called Partimage, which is for UNIX systems.


Newer version of apps might state they no longer support older versions of Windows, what this means is that they either do not any longer have a computer with that OS on it to test it, or they do not want to offer technical help supporting it, this does not mean the app wont work on the OS.

If you post your kazza question in any of the related kazza threads, someone will be able to help you with that problem most likely. Does not matter which thread you post it into either, keeping it in a pre-existing thread is a good idea and very welcomed.