Clock

[guest_Heather]

My clock in the task bar seems to lose time, any suggestions what the problem is and what i need to do to rectify it?
Thanks

[Guest]

Originally posted by guest_Heather@Mar 22 2005, 03:56 AM
My clock in the task bar seems to lose time, any suggestions what the problem is and what i need to do to rectify it?
Thanks
have you had any other problems ? you may well find your motherboard battery is in need of changing, how much time does the clock lose and how often.

[locustfurnace]

You system loosing time, is very common.
You can install a Freeware Time synchronizer app, which will fetch the atomic time, and sync your clock. This will help with your time drift.

Automachron (http://www.oneguycoding.com/automachron/) (pron. ah-TAW-ma-kron) is a freeware SNTP client - Simple Network Time Protocol - for synchronizing your computer's time with an NTP server.

NetTime (http://NetTime.sourceforge.net/)
is a simple time synchronization client for Windows 95/98/NT/2000. Its main claim to fame is that it is small, simple and unobtrusive. And, of course, it's free software.

[Guest]

losing time is very common ? common to who ? never had the problem with any pc ive owned built or repaired

[locustfurnace]

Very common. Otherwise, there would not be a need for NTP protocol. NTP version 3 is an internet draft standard, formalized in RFC 1305.

Most computers include a quartz resonator-stabilized oscillator and hardware counter that interrupts the processor at intervals of a few milliseconds. At each interrupt, a quantity called tick is added to a system variable representing the clock time. The clock can be read by system and application programs and set on occasion to an external reference. Once set, the clock readings increment at a nominal rate, depending on the value of tick. Typical Unix system kernels provide a programmable mechanism to increase or decrease the value of tick by a small, fixed amount in order to amortize a given time adjustment smoothly over multiple tick intervals.

Clock errors are due to variations in network delay and latencies in computer hardware and software (jitter), as well as clock oscillator instability (wander). The time of a client relative to its server can be expressed

T(t) = T(t0) + R(t - t0) + 1/2 D(t - t0)2,

where t is the current time, T is the time offset at the last measurement update t0, R is the frequency offset and D is the drift due to resonator ageing. All three terms include systematic offsets that can be corrected and random variations that cannot. Some protocols, including DTSS, estimate only the first term in this expression, while others, including NTP, estimate the first two terms. Errors due to the third term, while important to model resonator aging in precision applications, are neglected, since they are usually dominated by errors in the first two terms.

By its very nature, clock synchronization is a continuous process, resulting in a sequence of measurements with each of possibly several servers and resulting in a clock adjustment.

[Guest]

regardless of all the spiel you dribble out what your saying is pc manufacturers build and sell systems for hundreds and even thousands of dollars yet cannot fit a reliable system ? yeah right

[Guest]

Originally posted by Guest@Mar 24 2005, 01:58 PM
regardless of all the spiel you dribble out what your saying is pc manufacturers build and sell systems for hundreds and even thousands of dollars yet cannot fit a reliable system ? yeah right
clock system that is

[locustfurnace]

Originally posted by Guest@Mar 24 2005, 01:58 PM
regardless of all the spiel you dribble out what your saying is pc manufacturers build and sell systems for hundreds and even thousands of dollars yet cannot fit a reliable system ? yeah right
Yet, Microsoft, spends billions of dollars and has the most insecure OS on the market? and the most unstable OS as well. How could that be?
Cellular phone company's spend billions of dollars on wireless systems, yet voice quality is terrible, but, how could this be?

Pc makers make desktop PC's, they are not making mission critical systems, so these choices for a clock system, does pass their expectations, and does not need to be any better than what it currently is.
These desktop PC's are not used in life support systems. Quality needs only meet desktop PC levels, not the same expectations one would get with a heart monitor.
Microsoft, does not make heart monitor OS's either. Nor do they make an operating system which is used in life critical appliances. Microsoft is just too unreliable.
If Microsoft's OS was used in Airport control centers, not many people would be trusting their life's to such a airline.

[Pete]

Back to the original subject.

It depends on how much time you're loosing. If it's only a few seconds (or less) a day, a sycronizing utility, like locustfurnace recommended, could be considered routine maintenance. How often you use it, depends on how critical the correct time is to your activities.

If you're loosing something in the order of minutes (or more) per day, Your C-MOS battery may be failing (as discussed by the first "guest" reply). If so, it may be advisable to replace the battery before you lose your BIOS.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Pete@Mar 24 2005, 05:53 PM
Back to the original subject.

It depends on how much time you're loosing. If it's only a few seconds (or less) a day, a sycronizing utility, like locustfurnace recommended, could be considered routine maintenance. How often you use it, depends on how critical the correct time is to your activities.

If you're loosing something in the order of minutes (or more) per day, Your C-MOS battery may be failing (as discussed by the first "guest" reply). If so, it may be advisable to replace the battery before you lose your BIOS.
pete, thankyou so much at least i was not the only one to realise the most probable cause of the problem which is far more important than a time sync utility is to change that battery its worth changing if there is the slightest chance it may fail and lose your bios settings as with many other things people do not have screen shots and backups of these kind of things and settings and as they are far beyond the scope of most pc users then its obvious the battery change is a first worthwhile thing to do.

[The Dude]

Yes my computer lo$es time alot......

Thanfully i have MyIE2 which automatically corrects the time every 1 min. (Sync with atmoic time)

Ah well......How could a LOW BATTERY cause your clock to lose time WHEN THE COMPUTER IS ON AND POWERED UP?

[locustfurnace]

I've seen dozens of systems lose time and many more that were being overclocked, lose as much as 1 minute per 10 minutes.
This again goes back to the hardware interrupts, as mentioned above.
The battery is for keeping the CMOS charged. Which retains the BIOS state. If the battery is low, it will still power the clock, without losing time, if it is dead, thats another story.

[Stank_chair]

Older systems, old systems from our long lost past (pre 286 days) were the problem. mainly with institutions (and of course the goverment) with the powerfull systems we have today -drifting is not a common occurance. but these time sync programs are still quite a neat little novelty to have none the less..

[guest_heather]

[QUOTE][COLOR=red]
What your saying is if the battery is not replaced, the motherboard will fail, then what happens if it does, do I need a new battery for the clock and a new battery for the motherboard or is there only 1 battery.

[Pete]

Originally posted by guest_heather@Mar 26 2005, 03:23 AM
What your saying is if the battery is not replaced, the motherboard will fail, then what happens if it does, do I need a new battery for the clock and a new battery for the motherboard or is there only 1 battery.
If the battery fails, or you leave it out too long while changing it, you'll lose your BIOS. On some computers reloading them is a simple proceedure, on others it can be a little complicated. I'd suggest checking the settings and writing them down, just in case you're not using the default.

Most computers only have one battery. Sometimes they can be a little hard to find if you're not familiar with the inside of your machine.

EXTREME WORST CASE: If an old battery starts leaking, corrosives could damage the motherboard beyond repair. This happened to me once on an old 486 DX.

Please note locustfurnace's comment about possible other reasons for clock errors. Also note his doubt that a battery that is still saving the BIOS would be unable to run the clock. However if your machine is always "ON" , the battery could be nearly dead and you won't lose the BIOS until you turn it off or have a power failure.

[locustfurnace]

Originally posted by Stank_chair@Mar 25 2005, 09:18 AM
Older systems, old systems from our long lost past (pre 286 days) were the problem. mainly with institutions (and of course the goverment) with the powerfull systems we have today -drifting is not a common occurance. but these time sync programs are still quite a neat little novelty to have none the less..
Novelty? That's why all universitys and government institutions use these today? Is that why OBSD is currently developing a secure NTPD? Correct timing is crucial for all machines which compile software. It is also crucial for those running and use CVS systems.
No, its not a novelty, and besides older computers where made much more reliable, as they costed more - included better hardware, todays machine are dirt cheap, used OEM half equipped hardware, all-in-one controllers. All computer makers cut costs these days every way they can. Drift is more a problem today then in the past.
Very important for those running Beowulfs and clustering solutions as well.

[Pete]

Originally posted by locustfurnace@Mar 26 2005, 10:22 AM
..... and besides older computers where made much more reliable, as they costed more - included better hardware, todays machine are dirt cheap, used OEM half equipped hardware, all-in-one controllers. .....
Off Topic but...

How true;
My old XT was practically bulletproof (still works).
Price when new, over six grand.

I don't know if it's still true, but I understand that NASA was buying old 8088 processors for use in outside the atmosphere where radiation is a problem.

[The Dude]

I notice my clock is set to 66Mhz in BIOS....

What if i change it to a lower frequency???? Or a higher one??? (Theres several freq's listed 4 it)

Ah well.........

[Guest]

Originally posted by The Dude@Mar 27 2005, 03:02 AM
I notice my clock is set to 66Mhz in BIOS....

What if i change it to a lower frequency???? Or a higher one??? (Theres several freq's listed 4 it)

Ah well.........
that is nothing to do with the time clock dude, if you dont know anything about these settings leave well alone

[guest_heather]

where is the battery located for the clock and how do i replace same

[locustfurnace]

The battery will be located on the motherboard. Open the computers case, look for a round flat shiny battery, much like a watch battery but larger.
If you do not see one, depending on the motherboard maker, you may have a solid state battery, which can not be replaced (but should never fail either).

[Guest]

Originally posted by locustfurnace@Mar 26 2005, 10:22 AM

besides older computers where made much more reliable, as they costed more - included better hardware, todays machine are dirt cheap, used OEM half equipped hardware, all-in-one controllers. All computer makers cut costs these days every way they can. Drift is more a problem today then in the past.

yeah you reckon, it would not be anything to do with competition, the biggest factor in any electronic item is supply and demand,when you bought them systems as expensive as they were that was mainly because they were selling relatively small amounts of them, the price drop came due to mass production and sales not because of anything else as you are suggesting, vcr dvd tv and everything has done the same,its not cutting corners that does the price drops its mass productionand the number of companies fighting to keep the most sales,manufacturing costs have also dropped considerably on the components due to the same reasons

[locustfurnace]

Lets see, Today, if one is fortunate, a hard drive may live past 3 years. Maxtor drives dont not last very long. They are cheap yet offer a short live. I have several CONNER drives, which are 12+ years old and still work. All the modern day IDE hard drives I've owned have been cashed in.

If one wants a good quality ethernet card, you must spend a few for quality.
Consider that most modems are HCL (Winmodems, softmodems), the older, actually contained their own controller chips. This makes them perform better than a HCL modem. If you want a good modem, then you should buy an external or an older one.

Today's keyboards are lightweight junk. I have a dozen or more older keyboards, some which weigh a good hefty amount. Some have removeable cables, to replace if the cable goes bad. Some of my older ones offer F keysupwards to F22.

Todays computer cases are made of extremely thin tin.

Many soundcards and video cards lack a MIDI port, but these can be found on most older cards.

Todays CRT's, though cheap dont have all the features of older monitors, such as my current Syncmaster, which offers BNC or D-Sub connections as well the flexibility to used on either PC or Mac.

Caddyless CD-ROMS are all that is offered today, but the caddy systems would have offered faster speeds sooner, plus offered the protection missing from drives today. I've a few old SCSI CD-ROM drives which offer caddy systems. I do not need to swap CD's, just the caddy. Thus keeps the disk clean from fingerprints.

Lets consider my old SGI machines, made in 1992, has installed 4 video cards for various graphic rendering. The CPU is 64bit, yes, 64bit back in 1992. Todays x86 is finally embracing the 64bit architecture. It offers 4 PS/2 ports, Virtual Reality glasses.

My 7200/120, from 1995, built in ethernet, auto ejecting Floppy drive. buil-in sound card. The Quadra 630 I have is simple to remove the "motherboard", which is the chasis, just pop a latch and slide the chasis out, slide a new system in its place. Simple system upgrade.

Then again, the last few machines are not PC's.

[Guest]

many hard drives give up due to premature failure from heat, not because they are cheap and not made as good, if you use ide drives then you may want to add a hard drive cooler all mine run with coolers and i have drives near 4 years old and without a hitch,perhaps your old drives do still work but then heat wasnt a problem until PERFORMENCE started taking over these old days just dont perform the same as new drives due to them being a lot slower.i have used both old very old and new modems and there really isnt much difference although i do agree external modems perform better. keyboards are now far better then the older ones and keys upwards toward f22 for the most part are of no use to the average pc user my current keyboard i am typing this on is near 5 years old and as good as new ( lightweight junk ?) it does at least 6 hours a day of work 4 days a week so its had some hammer lightweight junk i think not. todays computer cases are made of thin tin ? a good job they are this helps them lose heat much faster than the old cases that bust your back, no point in them being thicker and heavier it only adds to the cost of manufacture and transporting and besides we dont really need to stand on the top of a tower to hang pictures we use step ladders nowadays, and as far as monitors go the masses who buy them usually just buy a pc package and have no need for all the other connections which the older monitors have and apart from that most have not even heard of a mac or regard them as rubbish from days gone by.

[locustfurnace]

5 year old keyboard? That belongs in the above "lightweight junk" category. Most of the keyboards I am referring to, that I am using right now, are from 1992 and earlier.
Having a keyboard that offers F22 keys, is very useful to someone who know how to re-program the keys - simple to do. I have macro's to these keys which work in certain programs, such as vi. Instead of typing out long combos of scripts. I just macro it to certain keys.

As for Apple Mac's being junk? That mentality is due to the ignorance of the PC user. As the PC user believes from the marketing hype, that 'Mega/Gigahertz' is the only thing important aspect of the system. Today, they are finally learning that clock cycles is not as important as once lead to believe.
I have a m68k 33mhz Mac, that can still play quicktime movies, cant do that on a 33Mhz PC. Even the mac I have from the 80's offer a SuperDisk, which is a floppy drive which auto ejects, PC floppys still require user intervention to eject a floppy today. Sure, this is nothing Special, but... PC's still do not do this.
Networking these old systems from the early 90's and late 80's is simple also. Since the OS has AppleTalk built in. Infact, The cabling used in the net talk system can be regular phone line.
Seeing that the 7200/80av I have has 4 video ports, 2 being S/Video. Yes, thats real junk. So much so that today, you still need to buy a card that offers S/video. I did mention this system was from 1993?
The older MAC's used SCSI, not IDE. Which older PC's, did not have the higher performance offered by these SCSI drives.
Todays G5's offer Dual 64bit CPU's. A Unix core OS.


Since this has gone off-topic, this will be my last reply to this.

[Guest]

me too remembering that this is a windows forum and a lot of stuff you speak about is not such