PDA

View Full Version : Is It Fair.....



TankEngine
06-28-2003, 10:20 AM
To whom it may concern.

I noticed a comment in another thread, that "Every link to this program will be edited."

I'm referring to StreamBox VCR. A program that is used to download and store RM files on your HardDrive.

Sure, it might be "illegal" in the US, but there's HUNDREDS of other countries where it's not "illegal" like in New Zealand, where I live. Why should everyone else be disadvantaged simply because a small amount of people (in terms of world population) aren't allowed it. It's not our fault that America's law makers have told their citizens that using this software is a no-no.

Is it not like saying "Alcohol is illegal in Norway (or is it Sweden) and therefore the rest of the world can't have a beer" ? Is it not like forcing your beliefs and laws upon others? Shouldn't we, the user, be allowed to decide for our selves? Is that not what freedom of choice is all about? Isn't editting someone's thread/post removing their fredom of speech?

Next, we'll have MP3 ripping software banned around the world, because it's illegal to make back-up copies of audio CDs in New Zealand. I'm not talking about distributing them, I'm talking about ripping them to your hard drive. The law states here, that if your original disc is damaged, the Record Company will replace it for free, as long as you hand over the damaged one.

Where will it end? With Porn? Because it's illegal in Muslim countries? Or maybe the sale of chewing gum because it's illegal in Singapore.

I appreciate that this site might be managed by Americans, and hosted by an American site/company, but surely you could add a disclaimer like "This software may not be used in America. Doing so breaks such and such law. The makers and host of this website hold no responsibility should you decide to download/use this software in America. All other users, have fun."

Do also keep in mind that at no stage have you hosted the installation files for StreamBox VCR. I have simply invited users to e-mail me if they'd like a copy.

I'm not angry or pissed off. I'm simply dumbfounded that we non Americans are having America's attitudes forced upon the rest of the world.

I have posted this thread for 2 reasons. 1) it's a shame to see such a well requested program disappear (I've had over 30 requests for it via e-mail) and 2) to prompt discussion regarding "drawing the line" of what should and shouldn't be available for users around the world.

Tank

Therese
06-28-2003, 01:45 PM
Read this topic.

http://www.oldversion.com/talk/index.php?a...ct=ST&f=5&t=946 (http://www.oldversion.com/talk/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=946)

OldVersion.com Admin
06-28-2003, 03:31 PM
The server that this site is hosted on is located in the US. Therefore, the site has to obey all laws of the United States - not New Zealand or wherever else you or someone else might be located.

locustfurnace
06-29-2003, 05:09 AM
you are right on the point. American-Lawmakers, not the people, should not force the world to obey our laws. but thats not something we as The People can just decide to break. Since i am unaware of how it is for other countries, i am only speaking from what i know.

Putting up a disclaimer as you suggested,
"This software may not be used in America. Doing so breaks such and such law. The makers and host of this website hold no responsibility should you decide to download/use this software in America. All other users, have fun." Does not dismiss the site from breaking US laws, nor does it keep away any lawsuits. Wish it did.
Even in America, the laws can differ very greatly from one State to the next.

Because it is legal in another country, does not necessarily keep a company within the US from seeking legal action against the party from another country. as was the case of Adobe System and a russian programmer. story in link.
http://news.cnet.com/investor/news/newsite...-6721527-0.html (http://news.cnet.com/investor/news/newsitem/0-9900-1028-6721527-0.html)

Just as it is legal to watch a DVD, and it is also legal to copy a dvd under the Fair Use Law. (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/108.html) but, in by doing so, you must break the encryption code to copy it, which is protected under the DMCA, which in turn, makes coping the DVD illegal.
DMCA - The Digital Millennium Copyright Act 1998 (http://www.educause.edu/issues/dmca.html)

For a while, and still tightly controlled. It was illegal to export any encryption software from the USA to any other countrys. It would be legal to download encryption from other countries, but once downloaded it could never again be offered to anyone outside the USA & Canada.
Offering encryption to other countrys, was a felony, as encryption was viewed as "Munitions" . United States Munitions List and regulated by the Department of State pursuant to the Arms Export Control Act (22 U.S.C. 2778 et seq.)
luckily, today the law has been loosened alittle as of 06-06-02.
http://www.bxa.doc.gov/Encryption/m961115.htm


I am sure if this site was hosted and run by non Americans, it might offer such things, and there are many such sites. and they dont last very long online.

aafuss
06-29-2003, 06:25 AM
For example some countries don't have fair use clauses-lke Australia. Also websites hosted by a host in one place might obey all that places rules. Gambling online, eg. is banned for Australians, but can be done in other countries.

Dookie
07-07-2003, 12:22 PM
I've commented on this before.
Tank makes some very good points but I can see both sides of the coin.

Reading the rules as posted by moderators im still not entirely clear.

In a nutshell are the rules :
No links to illegal warez
No publishing of serial numbers
No porn or items unrelated to the concept of oldversions/no longer published warez

But you can:
Mention the name of products ( be it they are illegal in one country or another )
Leave posts giving your email address for people to contact you ( bearing in mind this is private and out of public view ) should people wish to discuss topics further. Any "criminal" activity ( if any ) is the burden of the sender/reciever of any potentially outlawed software and is beyond the control of oldversion.com


Is this correct ? Please advise ?

ie If I was to mention "You can find an oldversion of blahblah that supports 2048 PGP encryption ( Illegal to use in USA ) by entering "blahblah 1.4" in Astavista search engine" .

Is that acceptable ?

I know you dont want topics about where to find the latest game ISO image as that is clearly piracy related and not relevant to "old versions". I just want to understand WHERE THE LINE IS in terms of "old version" be it they are illegal in one state or country on this globe.


Thanks Dooks.

locustfurnace
07-07-2003, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by Dookie+Jul 7 2003, 12:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Dookie @ Jul 7 2003, 12:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>In a nutshell are the rules :
No links to illegal warez
No publishing of serial numbers
No porn or items unrelated to the concept of oldversions/no longer published warez

I know you dont want topics about where to find the latest game ISO image as that is clearly piracy related and not relevant to "old versions". [/b]

I think you answered your own question. By saying you know ISO game images are illegal and its piracy, you state you know the difference, therefore you then also must know any retail software would be illegal to offer. What is the difference if it is a game or a file tool. if it is "warez" then its illegal thru and thru.
Do you believe if it is a ISO, sourced from a medium (CD), and a download pay program (no cd) there is a difference?

Only a publisher of a software title can decide if your able to share their software with others. Not other people. Just as i had posted before about downloading Jasc software, without the permission from the author to host their files on your site, you can not legally host it. EVEN if it is a shareware title, you have no rights to host their files. Shareware is not public domain software. The author can make any rules he choses, some vendors, such as Oracle, permit downloading their software, but prohibt backing it to ANY media (CD, tape, floppy). That is their sole right, They hold the copyright.

Under US law. anything that circumvents a restriction, ie. a serial, password, is viewed as illegal under the DMCA. any tools that can be used to circumvent a password is illegal. so serials and keygens and anything you use to obtain the product without purchase would be illegal. Since only by purchasing a license, do you obtain the permission to use the software. you arent necessarily purchasing the software as much as a license to use the software.

Linking to sites that host illegal content would not be illegal. But if the sites were to be taken down via police action and logs confiscated, their http refer log would point to other sites people had used to get to their illegal site.

one of the problems with leading people to such sites is alot of those sites are homes for virii. and you would make a lot of people upset with this site, for sending them to a site which infected them. so that would not sit well with visitors. nor would such places like the BBC mention this site, as it would make it appear as though the BBC endorses illegal activities, in some peoples eyes. (if this site had thousands of links to warez.)

Even sites that just place links can have problems with their ISPs. I know a site that had links,(the site was hosted by a University Professor as a case study), just links for all kinds of DeCSS programs, and he was sent several letters from anti-piracy groups to remove them.

I think the bottom line is, if you want a well visited site with legal, old versions of software. you should keep the whole site legal and on focus. if you want a warez site. go somewhere and find one.

<!--QuoteBegin--Dookie@Jul 7 2003, 12:22 PM

ie If I was to mention "You can find an oldversion of blahblah that supports 2048 PGP encryption ( Illegal to use in USA ) by entering "blahblah 1.4" in Astavista search engine" .[/quote]

When was 2048 bit encryption illegal to use under US law?

Dookie
07-07-2003, 11:03 PM
I think you answered your own question. By saying you know ISO game images are illegal and its piracy, you state you know the difference

I think you completely misunderstood the question.
What I was trying to achieve in a very simplistic manner was to highlight what "Im thinking" are the acceptable do and dont.

I&#39;ve read all postings regarding rules and was trying to establish which actions fall into the donts and which actions fall into the do&#39;s.

Correct me if im wrong - but "warez" is a slang term for software ( be it licensed/shareware/freeware ). This site does provide software.

Im not from America and so dont much care for their bizzare laws classifying encryption software under munitions etc. I thought rightly or wrongly that 2048 bit encryption was not allowed to be used in the USA as deemed too difficult for super computers to bruteforce crack the passwords. Anyway im deviating from my original question.

People are asking in the forums where can i get "shareware product xyz version 1.3", there seems to be no objections by anyone for doing this.

Now rather than using the example of of PGP. I&#39;ll use a genuine example which originally started all the confusion. Where can I get shareware program "StreamBox VCR". From previous comments made I understand this product is outlawed in the USA.

Now..what are the rules here...its shareware just like NeroBurn ( 30 day trial )
Its not legal in USA but is in the rest of the world.
So what can / cant we do ?
Can we leave contact details for people so this program/installation problems etc can be discussed outside of the board ?
Can we leave details where it can be found but not providing a direct link to it.
Can we provide a link to it so long as we state that USA people are forbidden by US law to download ?

I really dont understand. Original comments were completely censored "the very name" of a product outlawed in the USA. Ablix posted a reply that mentioned it and then later removed it. Now its been reposted by Tank and left. So Im really confused.

I get the impression you think Im trying to be awkward or a smart alec trying to bend the rules. This is not the case at all.
All im asking is..can someone please tell me the accepted does and donts on what moderators deem a grey area.

I see it as simple as this..if you make clear to people what should and shouldnt be done.. the number of posts you dissaproove of will be reduced and the number of people waisting their time trying to provide what they consider to be a legal service to others will be reduced.

If I want illegal warez this is the last place I&#39;d come..but like 98% of all other people here I just want to give & receive old versions of legally distributed software.
Its for you to tell us CLEARLY the limitations on what can/cant be mentioned when certain legal software has been outlawed in the US.

Thankyou.

locustfurnace
07-08-2003, 01:05 AM
I did not think you were being a smart alec or anything else. I am only trying to solve a question. I am not a owner/admin/mod of this forum, just a forum poster like yourself.


Correct me if im wrong - but "warez" is a slang term for software ( be it licensed/shareware/freeware ). This site does provide software.

No, "warez" is a term which defines cracked software, which is absent of its protection. Or has been hard-coded the registration number.

Dookie
07-08-2003, 01:10 PM
Thats good :)

Im overely paranoid and tend to think I upset people ( when I dont mean to ) and they get a bit annoyed.

To all moderators...

Please please have a think about this and make a definitive post as to exact rules ... even better invite forum members to ask further questions after they post a "rule set". So just incase there is any area still not clearly covered then further question can be taken into consideration and the "definitive post" can be adjusted accordingly.

Its not a case of splitting hairs or trying to find loopholes.
It would be good to know what everyone is happy with and what is not accepted.

More examples of rules is..."post any questions relating to programs hosted on this site"...Ive seen many examples where this isnt the case ..eg "can you help me..im looking for audiobible".
This by definition is breach of rules yet its an honest posting thats not going to cause problems to anyone. By virtue of this being a programs site, people will always deviate from core topics.
I think it would be good if people know what kind of posts wont upset people.

TankEngine
07-09-2003, 04:02 AM
Lets see if I can get away with this. (http://www.oldversion.com/talk/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=1028) Maybe I shouldn&#39;t say "get away with" ..... hmm..... "help people in need"

Tank

lzw
07-27-2003, 11:36 PM
never heard of that I thought rm files were just files for Real Player and cannot imagine how recording/copying them could be illegal?

Being such, maybe a violation of international trade laws and some lawers should take that up with america&#33; I being an american, realize they have stupid laws for other software that should be addressed also... For example, some DVD software is illegal but how?

I thought the law says it&#39;s illegal to distribute copyrighted software, and NOT illegal to record/duplicate/back it up?

wouldn&#39;t these laws make every backup program on the market illegal?

locustfurnace
07-28-2003, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by lzw+Jul 27 2003, 11:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (lzw @ Jul 27 2003, 11:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>never heard of that I thought rm files were just files for Real Player and cannot imagine how recording/copying them could be illegal?[/b]

Real Audio files are generally used to stream copyrighted materials, you have permission to listen to the stream, just not possess it. So recording it would be a violation of the user acceptable policy.


Originally posted by -lzw@Jul 27 2003, 11:36 PM

For example, some DVD software is illegal but how?


DVD are protected by encryption, copying the "movie" is legal under the Fair Use Law. BUT... to copy the movie you must first defeat the encryption, and here lies why it is illegal. The DMCA makes defeating protection encyption a felony. So by copying a DVD title. you HAVE to defeat the protection encryption, so therefore at that it makes it illegal.

<!--QuoteBegin--lzw@Jul 27 2003, 11:36 PM

wouldn&#39;t these laws make every backup program on the market illegal?[/quote]
No. because not all backup prgorams were designed to backup coppyrighted material. I backup my database files to CD-RW, I backup my photos taken from my digitial camera, from my digitial vidoe camera. When I decided to work on a new song and spend a couple months working on 1, it is backed up. Any time I do work for a customer on a layout for a graphic design, it is backed up. so that can not be illegal.
As far as backing up copyrighted works, under the fair use law, you have the rights to make 1 backup copy. this is music, software, whatever.
But current legislation in America would like to see the consumer lose all rights. and that is a big problem with the DMCA.

" While copyright law grants authors the exclusive right to reproduce and profit from their works, the law recognizes an exception called fair use. Fair use permits consumers&#39; limited personal, non-commercial use of lawfully obtained copyrighted material without prior consent of the copyright owner. It allows you to photocopy parts of books you own and make back-up tapes of movies or music you own onto VHS or cassette tapes. The U.S. Supreme Court has held that fair use is necessary to avoid an irreconcilable conflict between copyright law and the First Amendment&#39;s guarantee of free speech."

Fair Use Law;
TITLE 17 - CHAPTER 1;

Sec. 108. - Limitations on exclusive rights: Reproduction by libraries and archives

(a) Except as otherwise provided in this title and notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement of copyright for a library or archives, or any of its employees acting within the scope of their employment, to reproduce no more than one copy or phonorecord of a work, except as provided in subsections (B) and , or to distribute such copy or phonorecord, under the conditions specified by this section, if -

(1) the reproduction or distribution is made without any purpose of direct or indirect commercial advantage;

lzw
07-28-2003, 09:30 PM
ah, I see how this works&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; And the more I think about it, the sillier it sounds... compare it to medical marijuana:

- Media files are legal on the internet (for medical use)
- Get caught with them on your hard drive, that&#39;s possesion&#33;
- 10 or more, that intent to distribute man&#33;

seriously, we know that these hollywood music/movie files have exclusive copyright and that is why people trade them on places like kazza but I always thought there were no exclusive rights to these little clips all over the web (else why put them on the web) but since you have explained it, I see someone obviously does have exclusive distribution use rights&#33;

Of course most could things have an original copyright holder which prevents people from selling/renting/leasing other peoples intelectual property for profit but clearly people can see a nice picture on the web and set it as wallpaper without getting in trouble&#33; (I think)

I have solutions for both sides&#33;&#33;

don&#39;t want the whole world copying your files? stop putting them on the web&#33;

don&#39;t want so many drakonian hollywood laws? stop downloading their DVD&#39;s and just watch them on TV&#33;

Confession: OK, I have 1 southpark cartoon... But I only downloaded it because I was curious to see if it really would play on a computer&#33;

locustfurnace
07-28-2003, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by lzw@Jul 28 2003, 09:30 PM
but I always thought there were no exclusive rights to these little clips all over the web (else why put them on the web) but since you have explained it, I see someone obviously does have exclusive distribution use rights&#33;

as soon as you create something, a logo, a graphic image, a music sound clip, a written document, you have instant copyright to it. If it is an original work. there exists many forms of copyrights also. Original works, Derived works.....

you have the copyright to anything you create, it is granted to you.
NOW the problem lays in when you face a copyright infringment, it is difficult to prove you created something without a registered copyright.

The little clips someone makes on the net are copyrighted. web pages are copyrighted by the creators. it is just more difficult to prove infringement wihout a registered copyright.

guest_ben
03-23-2004, 09:35 PM
If I own a program, lose the disk, forget about it, and in a month reinstall my OS, I will find a warez version of the program. That is not illegal. That is a backup. That is the one legitiment way to use warez and it is always the claims in the disclaimer of the warez sites.


Though I believe that it is perfectly right for me to get a cracked version of the software I originally owned, it is impossible to filter who is getting a legitiment backup and who is stealing software. I understand that if I want the program, it is my responisibility to find it and not search for it on a respectable site such as oldversion.com


The difference between this site and most is that this site takes piracy seriously: and they should. They don&#39;t use an excuse for a disclaimer that says, "I don&#39;t care if you do it, just you didn&#39;t get it frm me." They actually provide make sure that they do not promote stolen software.

*Applause*

locustfurnace
03-24-2004, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by guest_ben+Mar 23 2004, 10:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (guest_ben @ Mar 23 2004, 10:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>That is the one legitiment way to use warez and it is always the claims in the disclaimer of the warez sites. [/b]
Warez disclaimers are not legal protection from prosecution. Many &#39;warez&#39; sites post dislaimers stating they can not be held accountable for you using their software, this is nonsense, they are hosting illegal content, simply stating you do not condone the useage, would not legitimize the suppling of software in direct violation of the copyright holders.Simply stating you can use this for 24 hours then you must delete is not valid. If the &#39;warez&#39; was cracked, and does no longer make use of your valid license, you then are using an illegal copy of the software. Since most warez are stripped of their copy-protection, your using software which is in direct violation of its EUA.
Remember also your not paying for the software code, your paying for the license to use the software. If you made a backup of your own software, which maybe be legal for some, but not all software titles, again, you have to make sure the EUA permits back-up copies. If you say your permitted by law to backup the software, all you have to do is remember that the EUA you agreed to is a contract, if in the EUA you agreed to before running the title states you are prohibited from making a backup copy, and you continue forth, then you have no right to make up a backup copy.
By obtaining a cracked version, it is stripped of its copy protection scheme, the software then is no longer legit for anyone to use legally.


Originally posted by -guest_ben@Mar 23 2004, 10:35 PM
Though I believe that it is perfectly right for me to get a cracked version of the software I originally owned,
If you &#39;crack&#39; the software yourself, your in possession of illegal software, by downloading the crack. As cracks are illegal under the DMCA.


Originally posted by -guest_ben@Mar 23 2004, 10:35 PM
The difference between this site and most is that this site takes piracy seriously: and they should.*

This site is very different than &#39;warez&#39;. This is a Freeware & Shareware site. This site is similar to Tucows, C|net, PCworld, Simtel.net. It is nothing like the &#39;warez&#39; groups. As there is not a single piece of &#39;warez&#39; hosted here.

<!--QuoteBegin--FAQS@ http://www.oldversion.com/faq.php
Why do you only have freeware and shareware?
This is not a "warez" site. We are able to legally distribute only freeware and shareware, since they are free. [/quote]